Ist dieses Wasser Leck von VW design?

  1. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    Sorry for writing in English. I forgot German too much.

    Is this leak by VW design from model year 2012?

    VW of America's position is that this water leak in Golf is by VW design from model year 2012. They admit that they do not have any VW document supporting it, but they still maintain their position.

    Water comes through the gap between the plastic interior door panel and the metal door.



    I also posted a youtube video of this.
    VW of America declares that this water leak is normal - YouTube
    Since the video is dark and is not of high resolution, please increase the brightness setting on your monitor, watch in full screen, and concentrate on the location marked by red arrow in the picture above.

    The picture below is how I replicated rain at car wash bay for the above youtube video. I sprayed low pressure water to the beltline from the exterior.









    Contrary to the claim of VW of America about the water leak on my 2012 Golf, the same kind of water leak on my driver's door on my 2011 Golf was repaired at a VW dealer under VW new car warranty.


    Below is the copy of the dealer invoice.

    REMOVED DRIVERS SIDE DOOR AND TRIM PANEL. WATER TESTED FOUND WINDOW LIFTER SEAL AND WOOFER SEAL LEAKING. REPLACED LIFTER AND SPEAKER. (SPEAKER SEAL NOT AVAILABLE. ONLY SPEAKER)
    REWATER TESTED AND VERIFIED REPAIRS.

    8 5KO-837-975-A RIVET
    4 N-911-895-01 POP-RIVET
    1 5K0-837-461-D REGULATOR
    1 WHT-005-353 POP-RIVET
    1 1K8-035-454 WOOFER
    4 N-907-657-01 POP-RIVET




    In case you are interested in more detail (VW's email reply to me, etc.) you can visit this web post:
    VWVortex.com - VW of America wrote that this water leak is normal
     


    #1
  2. alno_2003

    alno_2003 Bastler
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    As there is no official note that supports the statement - as you said - I would not believe this drain is on purpose. Any moisture behind the door panels is already too much.

    Why should rain water flow off through a door where there is lots of electronic and other stuff that could be harmed by water?

    Why there is a seal around the glass window? Because water is not supposed to get in there.

    This statement seems ridiculous to me. I would try another dealer to get this fixed asap. Not to ruin your 2012 VW already after a few months.
     
    #2
  3. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    The seal on the belt line on the door is not 100% water proof. When it rains, some water goes to the inside of the door.

    This water drains through the drain holes on the bottom horizontal surface of the door.

    As you said, a designer has no reason to send that water to electric and electronic parts inside the door and then drain it to the interior of the car through the gap between the plastic interior door panel and the metal door as in the right rear door of my 2012 Golf.

    With my 2011 Golf, a VW dealer said to me that every car is designed to leak water this way. Their claim turned out to be false. At that time, VW of America did not say that they support the claim of that dealer.
     
    #3
  4. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    I asked Volkswagen AG again to answer whether this kind of water leak is by VW design.

    Below is copy of part of VW AG's reply and my reply to their reply.




    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    Tuesday, June 5, 2012 7:43 AM
    From VW AG

    Dear Mr. L.,

    Thank you for your e-mail and your interest in Volkswagen.

    We kindly ask you for your understanding that we cannot comment videos from non-official sources (e.g. YouTube).



    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    Wednesday, June 6, 2012 1:55 AM
    ToVW AG

    Dear Mr. A. and Mr. M.

    Thank you for your reply.

    I understand that you do not comment on youtube video. I believe, however, Volkswagen AG does not reject a customer's question just because he used picture and video in addition to alphabet for efficient communication. I think people within Volkswagen AG also use pictures, drawings, videos and more for communication with each other.
     
    #4
  5. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    I replied by email to VW AG once with 25MB files (3 pictures and 1 video), and again without file attachments.

    Both emails were not delivered.

    It is surprising that such big company's email system is malfunctioning this way. Of course, it is more surprising that such a big company rejected my question because of usage of a video posted at a third party web site for convenience in communication.

    I submitted it on their web page, and am waiting for reply.


    Below is copy of the notice from Yahoo.

    %%%%%%%%%%
    %%%%%%%%%%
    From: [email protected]

    failure notice

    Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.
    I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
    This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

    "<" [email protected] ">":
    Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1)
    I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
    .
    .
    .
    %%%%%%%%%%
    %%%%%%%%%%






    Below is copy of my email reply to Volkswagen AG (the one without email attachment) that was rejected by their email server.

    %%%%%%%%%%
    %%%%%%%%%%
    .
    .
    .
    Could you just answer my question below?

    Did VW design Golf doors from model year 2012 so that water drains through the gap between the plastic interior door panel and the metal door?

    For a technician or a designer who knows about the water drain path inside the door, this question should be very simple and easy to answer.

    Please understand that there are reasons why I am asking this question to Volkswagen AG instead of a VW dealer or VW of America. . . .
    .
    .
    .
    To save time (for efficient communication), please present the pictures and videos in the post
    http://www.golf-6.com/werkstatt/12132-ist-dieses-wasser-leck-von-vw-design.html
    to a technician or designer in Volkswagen AG. There are two pictures showing the location where water comes out: the gap between the plastic interior door panel and the metal door. There is a link to a video showing the amount of water leak – how many drops per second -. There is also a picture explaining the setting for the video: at a car wash bay, I sprayed low pressure water instead of high pressure water, because rain does not fall to the car at high pressure.
    .
    .
    .
    %%%%%%%%%%
    %%%%%%%%%%
     


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    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 8. Juni 2012
  6. Raliwutsch

    Raliwutsch Pamperpilot
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    On your photo it looks like the plastic area is bigger than the sealent, so that there is a gap between door and plastics, this is not pretty normal in my eyes. But if it is so, there should be a problem for all cars.
     
    #6
  7. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    Could you clarify what you mean by "the plastic area is bigger than the sealent"? Thanks.
     
    #7
  8. Raliwutsch

    Raliwutsch Pamperpilot
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    ep, I mean, that the Cover of the door is, in a closed condition, below the P-seal of the cars frame. So, that there is a gap. Picture3, your red area, is not "closed" by the seal. Perhaps you can take a look with an endoscope or you close the door, while lying on the floor. The rubber must be underneath the plastics. OR you measure it ground to plastic, ground to rubber.
     
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  9. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    The metal area right below the plastic interior door panel in the 3rd picture (my 2011 Golf) properly touches the black EPDM rubber seal on the car's body when the door is closed. This is also the case in my 2012 Golf.

    The defect is in the seals inside the door, which is not visible unless we remove the the plastic interior door panel.
     
    #9
  10. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    Raliwutsch,

    I think I still do not understand your comment clearly.

    Are you talking about the matching drawn in violet, orange, or something else?



    The gap between the plastic interior panel and the metal door (red circled region in the picture ) is not supposed to be sealed by the seal on the car body frame. On the doors that do not leak, there are gaps, but no water comes through those gaps - water comes out through the drain holes on the bottom surface of the door -.
     
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    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 11. Juni 2012
  11. ks_golf

    ks_golf Neuer Benutzer

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    still the same behaviour rigth now?

    Hi dkraft,

    I have just joined this forum because I got my golf VI two weeks ago.

    Unfortunately it rained a bit in this two weeks and I had to watch that the 4 doors of my car are also "collecting" the water.
    I was very surprised because I never made this experience with one of my former cars.
    Searching the web I found a couple of user videos and discussions like in your thread.
    For instance: Leaky Golf - Mk 6 Volkswagen Golf issue with water being retained in the door after rain. or Wasser in den Türen 3/5 Türer - hier die Lösung=Abhilfe! + Videobeweis vom Resultat! : VW Golf 6 (what fits the best to the situation with my car) and within this forum http://www.golf-6.com/werkstatt/2198-wasser-den-tueren.html

    From what I have seen so far your case seems to be the most annoying one because in most of other cases it was reported that the water run out when opening the doors after a rain or a visit in the car-wash without any damage caused by the water.

    Actually I'm really unsure what to do but i'm not willing to accept this at all. Sure I will try out some of the mentioned tips , but that can't be the final solution".

    Did you get any news from your dealer or VW?

    best regards
     
    #11
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 15. Okt. 2012
  12. Turbotreter

    Turbotreter Administrator
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    Well,
    the Collection of Water is quite normal. In German VW call it "Stand der Technik". They can´t do better, it is designed in such a way, which make this "Problem" normal.
    Try the tipps to break the watertension . This is the final solution. VW does not care about this "problem" because in thier oppinion it´s no problem.
     
    #12
  13. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    Hi, Turbotreter

    Could you tell us where you learned that the collection of water is quite normal?

    It is not normal, and my two rear doors were repaired under VW warranty.

    The service manager at a VW dealer, and some people at Volkswagen of America were lying to me.

    I will post more detail.
     
    #13
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 15. Okt. 2012
  14. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    The water issue you are talking about may be different from my issue. In my case, the water comes out from the gap I mentioned in my first post (also see the red arrow in the picture), and thus the water goes to the "interior" of the car. Water coming out from the drain hole is not my issue.
     
    #14
  15. Turbotreter

    Turbotreter Administrator
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    Sorry I missed the point.
    My doors collect water, after washing or a rainy day.
    The water leaves the door after opening.
    This is quite normal. You are writing about a problem between the plastic of the door and the metal party. This isn´t normal.
     
    #15
  16. ks_golf

    ks_golf Neuer Benutzer

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    I'm sorry Ihave not found the time to answer earlier... but yes I would agree this is another issue

    und

    Nein, das ist (abhängig von der Dir beobachteten Menge) definitiv nicht normal..... ich bin dabei "Material" zu sammeln, das hoffentlich nicht nur dich überzeugen wird
     
    #16
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 22. Okt. 2012
  17. dkraft

    dkraft Neuer Benutzer

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    The leak on the left and right rear doors were repaired.

    The service advisor at Scott Volkswagen, RI, USA said that he were aware of this problem, he had this kind of leak repaired in other customers’ VW vehicles, and that there is a VW service bulletin for this kind of water leak.

    I cannot understand how Mr. L. F., the service manager at Colonial VW of Medford, MA, USA, could lie that this kind of water leak is by VW design. More surprising is the fact that Regional Case Manager, K. S. and Customer CARE Advocate R. B. continued to support that lie, even though I gave VW of America plenty of information about my water leak.


    I copied below the relevant parts from the VW dealer repair invoices.

    October 8th, 2012
    Scott Volkswagen, RI, USA

    customer states the left rear door leaks
    verified concern on previous visit. found the left rear door seals, regulator, and speaker leaking.
    replaced regulator, speaker and seals.
    5K4839461 REGULATOR 1 W
    1K8035454 WOOFER 1 W
    WHT005353 POP-RIVET 4 W
    N 91189051 POP-RIVET 10 W
    6N0839511 PIN 1 W



    June 27th, 212
    Scott Volkswagen, RI, USA

    Customer states the right rear door leaks water from the outside to inside,
    diagnosed previous visit as the speaker gasket.
    Verified concern. Removed right rear door panel, found water leaking through the right rear door speaker seal. Also found water leaking from the plastic rivets that hold inner door panel.
    Replaced door speaker seal. Sealed plastic rivets, water tested, verified the seal is no longer leaking.

    1K8971798 FOAM 1 W
    5K6867212EQYDV DOOR TRIM 1W
    WHT005353 POP-RIVET 6 W
     
    #17
  18. ks_golf

    ks_golf Neuer Benutzer

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    Oops... die Foren-Systemumstellung hat mich daran erinnert, dass ich mal angekündigt hatte, etwas zu dem Thema einzustellen..
    Zumindest dem amerikanischen Golf-Fahrer "dkraft" wurde ja in der Zwischenzeit geholfen....

    Zur Veranschaulichung des von mir geschilderten Problemes hier ein Link auf ein kurzes Video (in minderer Qualität) von meinem Auto....

    So zu beobachten nach "jedem" durchschnittlichem Regen.
    ..ich hatte in der Zwischenzeit auch viel ergebnislosen Schriftwechsel mit VW und in der Werkstatt konnte man damit auch nicht viel anfangen..
    ..dabei war die Problematik im Ansatz zumindest schon zweimal Gegenstand gerichtlicher Verfahren.

    http://openjur.de/u/306068.html
    http://www.kfz-betrieb.vogel.de/recht/articles/417200/ (mit aus meiner Sicht fragwürdiger Qulität des Gutachters.... wahrscheinlich aber eine Parteifrage )

    Das letzte Urteil und meine Gespräche mit Gutachtern von der Dekra und anderen Instituten haben mich jedenfalls nicht ermutigt, ohne konkreten Schaden weiter zu insistieren.
    Ein angemessenes Gutachten, dass die Frage beantwortet, ob die ewige Staunässe z.B. in zwei Jahren mal das Türinnenleben zerstört kostet schnell zwischen 3000€ bis 6000 € und ist als Parteigutachten ausserhalb eines Gerichtsverfahrens wohl letztlich nicht das Papier "wert", auf dem es gedruckt wird....

    ...zumindest funktioniert bei VW der Service rund um die Mobilitätsgarantie gut. Das durfte ich in den letzten 2 Jahren schon dreimal in Anspruch nehmen, aber das ist 'ne andere Geschichte....
     
    #18
  19. Turbotreter

    Turbotreter Administrator
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    Da läuft ja schon ordentlich was zusammen an Menge. Bei mir ist das nicht so schlimm.
    Es wäre also sinnvoll für Werterhalter und Besitzer, die ihren G6 länger fahren möchten, die Türen mit Fluidfilm / Co zu fluten, damit dort einfach nichts gammeln kann.
     
    #19

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